1. Someone, whether it is the govt. for those who choose the public option, or insurance companies, will always be involved in medical decisions. I delayed a dental procedure I needed in December until January when my new annual cap went into effect. My medical doctor does not take insurance--our decisions are based on my ability to pay upfront, and my condition. We do work things out, but there may come a point in time when our family income means we have to join a more restrictive insurance group. That's life; care is rationed by your ability to pay, your carrier's (or in the case of Medicare, etc, the government's) contract with you for services you will receive. Most carriers don't pay for experimental treatments, even if a doctor says it may help you. That's rationing.
2. The financial system is still in the throes of collapse. Don't sugarcoat what your party--in power from 1995 to 2007 in Congress, and in both WH and Congress from 2001 to 2007--did to our regulatory systems. Don't sugarcoat the incentives you gave to businesses to take jobs out of our country, or perhaps just your party's disinclination to punish financially those companies who think patriotism means someone else's kid fighting the 'terrorists', while they profit on the backs of low paid foreign workers, putting American taxpayers out of work. Your party--your fault. Obama's problem to fix and be judged on how he fixes it, despite your party's stated intention of assuring that he (and thus all Americans) 'fails'.
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A lying statist is in charge, do you think he could tell the truth? Tell me another one Odumbo, my sides are splitting. |
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3. Doctors and hospitals job the system. I was around before Medicare. My father and his fellow physicians all ranted then that Medicare was socialized medicine. When it passed, they simply racheted up their fees so they could still do very well even with Medicare comp. rates. The same is true for most with the rates they agree to with insurers. Perhaps doctors, lawyers, professions that for decades (though not historically) have been like pigs at the trough (and my husband is an attorney), making money hand over fist just because we went to grad schools, disproportionate to the general public, perhaps things do have to change. Somehow doctors who work for Kaiser and other cost-effective operations make decent incomes. They are not working two or three jobs to get by.
4. "It" is already paid for by "middle class taxpayers", and everyone else. Every uninsured person who gets treated at the ER and doesn't pay in full costs us all now. Out of control costs for medication and such is paid for by all of us. Most of us already pay high premiums. Somehow, we want services but we don't want to pay for them, esp. if it means someone who isn't paying the same as we are gets those services. We are already paying, Congressman.
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The 'penalty' for not buying ‘acceptable’ health insurance is more than fair. Let's say you earn $100,000 a year. That 2.5% tax increase is how much? $2500 maybe? But you are choosing not to buy insurance that will provide you and your family with adequate coverage that will pay for your bills. If you have no bills, it may seem unfair, but break a hip, and you have inadequate insurance, how much is that going to cost you? If you can't pay it, you go bankrupt and we all pay it. If you pay over time, that is still a loss for us all. The $2500 is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of emergency or catastrophic medical care that you are choosing not to buy. We regulate drivers in our state (CA) who do not buy auto policies, don't we? We 'punish' them by making them ineligible for damage suits should they get injured in a car accident that is not even their fault, don't we? And we have 'assigned risk' situations, along with uninsured motorist costs for each insurance policy holder. We penalize there, but not in the healthcare realm? Seriously, Congressman, you cannot be that dense.
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It is dizzying seeing all the spin that the Obama Administration is putting on this Healthcare bill. And it seems that Kaboom is buying it. |
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Congressman: There is a difference between a deficit and the national debt. How about discussing the issues separately instead of doing what you on the right all seem to do--not educate your readers and constituents about the difference, and why the difference matters.
Besides, you have no trouble with deficit spending or increasing the national debt to build planes even the Pentagon doesn't want, right? Or fighting wars that were based on bad intelligence, right? Or rushing back, at the taxpayers' expense, to DC to pass legislation to 'save' Terry Schiavo? Or your porkbarrel stuff. That we can spend on. Healthcare, not so much.
In terms of the deficit, we reduced spending by 2.2 trillion - We’ve actually increased spending by trillions of dollars since President Obama took office. The United States has set course under the leadership of President Obama to double the national debt in 5 years and triple it in 10. CBS News – February 26, 2009
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.....for this lemon....
She must have been promised a comissar-ship when the takeover is complete.....
Not today, boomer..... Not today..... |
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Yeah, let's allow them to sell products across state lines...like the banks. Let's deregulate them all too while we are at it.
And go to the Blue Shield/Blue Cross site...it is one national entity with state based programs. You are a liar, plain and simple, Congressman.
Republicans want to delay, delay, delay. If they can defeat President Obama--who won by a landslide and is supported by a strong Dem Congress--that's the only thing the GOP cares to reform.
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"Republicans want to delay, delay, delay. If they can defeat President Obama--who won by a landslide and is supported by a strong Dem Congress--that's the only thing the GOP cares to reform."
Obdumbo won by a landslide? 53% is a landslide? Know we really know how stupid you is!!! |
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Do you actually think if he told the American public the truth, this would have a snowball's chance in hell of passing? |
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apart point by point. You are the ones buying the talking points.
Tell me, if you hate people getting things for free, why the opposition to a penalty if you don't get insurance? The penalty is undoubtedly far cheaper than the cost of the medical care that the person chose not to get insurance to cover.
I guess instead of a monetary penalty, we should just deny any care.
In the meantime, if you cannot address the specifics as I have, I won't respond to your ad hominem attacks.
You didn't listen to his conference; you listened to the pundits. Frankly, if Obama doesn't fix the problems in healthcare, and we keep pushing the can down the road, we will get what we deserve...and it will not be better healthcare. It will be simply more obviously rationed healthcare--the rich get the best, the poor get it for free, and the middle class will self ration. |
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kaboom is really rambling today. Nothing worth reading. |
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This is one of the models that Obama touts. Cleveland clinic is a great institution and one of the best when it comes to cardiac surgery. They admit that they do well by supplimenting medicare and medicaid payments with money from private insurance, cash pay patients from other countries and a large donor base. How do you think this institution will function when they are forced to take more patients, accept less money as private insurance will be less of an option and government payments comparable to medicare rates will be their main source of income and it is doubtful that many foreign patients will come for better, quicker treatment when this institution will surely have waits comparable to those in Europe. How long will they stay great. |
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In order to make any sense of Obama's claims, one must have a lot of background knowledge to know where Obama is using words in a technically accurate but intentionally misleading fashion.
Kaboom, you're completely off the mark.
"The Government won’t be involved in medical decisions..." Firstly, Kaboom ignores the blatant misrepresentation and attempts to equivocate. As Kaboom said, someone is already making such judgments. But right now, that person is the doctor.
Whether the insurance will pay for it is a secondary consideration. The government board, however, will look at national statistics to decide a priori whether particular treatments are cost-effective. This will be imposed on doctors. Private insurance is not imposed on doctors. If one can elect another most effective procedure and pay oneself it will have to be more expensive than it is now.
And when Obama says "government" he must mean elected officials...as opposed to the non-partisan experts. So, yes, the government will make healthcare choices, our health dependent on a cost-benefit analysis. |
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Is really fired up, fess up who gave her a wedgie? |
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As I am close to the magic age I am quite distress to find out that it will be mandatory for me to see a doctor and discuss end of life issues. I am healthy and hope to stay that way for many years to come. I am now apparently supposed to decide in what manner I want to die when the time comes. I guess I will be told what to expect in the way of care from age 65 on. Apparently, 65 is the age when you are considered worthless and not worth spending money on. Gee I can't even collect SS till I am 66. Guess they hope I don't make it till then. |
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I'm guessing that Campbell will be VERY leery of taking questions from the public from now on. Who knows when Kaboom might be in the audience? A couple of questions like this in front of the national media, and he's out of his office and she's in it. |
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"I am now apparently supposed to decide in what manner I want to die when the time comes. "
If you don't have a Living Will that states all of these things clearly and completely, you're completely out of your mind. You're also putting your close relatives in danger of some extremely distressing emotional bouts. |
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....always cracking a joke.....! |
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Muncky is trying to make a new friend. Two loons. |
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Yes I have a living will and my family is well aware of my wishes if I get sick or am unable to make those decisions for my self. And your point was what? It has nothing to do with the mandatory disussion with the doctor. My doctor has a copy of my living will on file. No need for discussion. No need for mandatory doctor visit. |
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"Yes I have a living will"
So when you complained that "I am now apparently supposed to decide in what manner I want to die when the time comes" you'd somehow forgotten that you had ALREADY made those decisions? |
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I suspect that, if Kaboom were to engage Congressman Campbell in a townhall meeting (and assuming she could remain civil), Mr. Campbell would do very well in answering her charges of "misleading" in his responses to Pres. Obama's presser last night.
In this forum (TH), he has no way of knowing her accusations, so we are left with the rest of us to respond to her/him.
Read "Healthcare Mythology" by Clifford Asness at StumblingonTruth.com - linked at RealClearPolitics.com today. |
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Since you are requesting a point by point "analysis", let me oblige.
1. You state that your care is currently rationed by your ability to pay. This is a misleading statement because by definition, everything is rationed by a persons ability to pay. Government rationing is quite different since it is done regardless of the individuals ability or desire to pay. In effect, the Government is placed in the collective shoes of us all and decides what is affordable.
2. The Congressman is right regarding the late financial crisis. While we are still not out of the woods, by January the crisis (real or imagined) had passed.
3. Doctors (and I guess lawyers) job the system? Doctors have to cost shift to private payers because it is in fact the Government that is using its power to job the system by systematically paying less than value for medical procedures through Medicare and Medicaid. The question is, who will doctors cost shift to when the private payers are forced out of business. The answer is, you and me and everybody else who pays taxes. Otherwise, there will be significantly fewer doctors.
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You are an embarrassement to all Californians, especially to your own district. Instead of bills sponsoring authentic birth certificates which are not in dispute, could we pleae concentrate on the huge issues at hand--health care, jobs, stimulus, etc. |
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FROM THE DESK OF Gary G. Kreep
Barack Hussein Obama's "birthday" is coming up in just two weeks
-- on August 4th... so we have a special birthday surprise
planned for him, and I would like YOU to take part.
FAX All 50 State Attorneys General To
Investigate Obama's Birthday FRAUD:
https://secure.conservativedonations.com/usjf_faxag_wnd/?a= 2736
According to published reports, Barack Obama's legal team has been paid over one million dollars, so far, to STOP anyone from seeing ANY of his actual identification documents, or many other documents:
Actual long-form birth certificate (NOT an easily-forged
electronic copy of a short-form document that is not even
officially accepted in Hawaii) Passport files
University of Chicago Law School scholarly articles
Harvard Law Review articles
Harvard Law School records
Columbia University records
Columbia University senior thesis, "Soviet Nuclear Disarmament"
Occidental College records, including financial aid that he may
have received Punahou School records, where Mr. Obama attended from the fifth grade until he finished high school
Noelani Elementary School records, where Barack Obama attended kindergarten (according to the Hawaii Department of Education,students must submit a birth certificate to register --but parents may bring a passport or student visa if the child is from a foreign country)
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Complete files and schedules of his years as an Illinois state
senator from 1997 to 2004 Obama's client list from during his time in private practice with the Chicago law firm of Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Gallard Illinois State Bar Association records Baptism records Obama/Dunham marriage license
Obama/Dunham divorce documents Soetoro/Dunham marriage license Soetero/Dunham Adoption records
By the way, the issue of the Occidental College records is
especially pertinent. The United States Justice Foundation (USJF)served officials at Occidental College with a subpoena to produce records concerning Barack Obama's attendance there during the1980's, because those records could document whether he was attending as a foreign national. You see, Mr. Obama attended the school on a scholarship -- and there are questions as to whether the financial aid he received was reserved for foreign students.
The Obama attorneys have bent over backward to block us. He doesn't want anyone to see those records. He's STILL trying to hide them; those financial records STILL have not been released.
WHAT is Barack Obama trying to hide? WHAT is he afraid of? WHY doesn't he just release these documents to prove that he is a natural-born citizen and, therefore, qualified to serve as President -- especially his actual birth certificate?
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Isn't it time we FORCED him to come clean? His "birthday" is the PERFECT time to do it!
FAX All 50 State Attorneys General To
Investigate Obama's Birthday FRAUD:
https://secure.conservativedonations.com/usjf_faxag_wnd/?a= 2736
I dared bring Barack Obama into court to force him to produce
his birth certificate, and put an end to the controversy over his
status as a "natural born" citizen once and for all. And now he'scoming after me and the United States Justice Foundation (USJF) -- the public-interest legal group that I founded over 30 years ago -- with a vengeance!
Why? Because we dare to seek the TRUTH!
And they must have something to hide, because Mr. Obama's
attorneys have threatened to spend, and then sanction, USJF out of existence.
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That's why USJF has started efforts to convince State Attorneys General, all across the country, to investigate whether Barack Obama has committed perjury by knowingly filing false nomination papers... claiming to be constitutionally eligible to run for, and serve as, President of the United States. As you know, the available evidence shows that he was born in Africa.
Frankly, the evidence that Barack Hussein Obama was born in
Africa -- not Hawaii as he claims -- and, therefore, cannot serve as the President of the United States, is compelling.
First, Mr. Obama's refusal to release his birth certificate. If
he has nothing to hide, what does he gain by refusing to allow
the press to see the birth certificate?
Second, the contention by Barack Obama's half-sister, Maya
Soetoro-Ng, that Mr. Obama was born in a particular Hawaiian
hospital, only to claim that it was in a different hospital
several years later. And, most recently, Barack Hussein Obama has contradicted himself, in writing, regarding the name of the hospital where he claims to have been born.
Third, the erecting of a wall around Barack Obama's grandmother, the late Madelyn Dunham, by Mr. Obama, thus cutting off access to the one person then alive who would have been present if he was actually born in Hawaii.
Fourth, the posting of law enforcement personnel at the two
hospitals in Honolulu mentioned by Ms. Soetoro-Ng in an effort to block the press from discovering the truth about the birth certificate.
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Fifth, a taped phone conversation with Mr. Obama's
step-grandmother in Kenya, who claims that she was present at his birth... in what is now called Kenya!
Sixth, the "birth certificate" posted on the Obama campaign
website and other liberal websites. Since Barack Obama was born in 1961, long before laser printers and office computers, his original birth certificate would be typewritten ... unlike the
laser printed "copy" purported to be genuine.
The evidence demands that Barack Obama answer why he has been hiding the truth from the American people about his eligibility to run for, and serve as, President!
It's TRUE. Not only does Mr. Obama continue to categorically
refuse to produce the decisive evidence proving whether he is a"natural born" citizen, his high-priced LA-based "dream team" of attorneys has USJF squarely in its crosshairs! And they're loading both barrels!
So, unless you help me and my team here at USJF to stand our ground in court, Mr. Obama's hired guns could blow a financial hole in USJF's ability to be the proverbial thorn in Mr. Obama's side!
Barack Obama continues to battle any attempt to see his real
birth certificate -- producing only a phony one posted on his
website -- as well as fighting us tooth and nail as we seek
access to his college records... records which we believe may
prove that he was foreign born!
USJF served that subpoena upon Occidental College to gain access to Mr. Obama's college records, and we are fighting to get at the truth on many other fronts, as well, including:
Appealing a case filed by USJF in California, all the way up to
the United States Supreme Court, if necessary, on behalf of 2008 Presidential candidate Alan Keyes, calling into question Mr. Obama's status as a "natural born" citizen;
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Funding and assisting local attorneys and Plaintiffs, in similar
lawsuits, in Ohio, Hawaii, and Mississippi -- AND we'll soon be
filing more lawsuits; and
We have initiated a campaign demanding that every State Attorney General in the country take action now to force Mr. Obama to just show us the TRUTH.
You see, when Barack Obama officially entered the office of
President, he became, in essence, a "pretender to the throne."
According to the Constitution, only a "natural born citizen" can
occupy the presidency.
Even though he was sworn in on January 20, 2009, Barack Obama is NOT legally the President of the United States, unless he can prove that he is a "natural born citizen."
What's more, every action taken by him while he occupies the
White House may be invalid. If he cannot legally be President,
every law passed by Congress will be null and void because the Constitution clearly requires that all laws be signed by the
President... and, without a legally elected and sworn in
President in office, that becomes an impossibility.
Quite frankly, this crisis must be ended! And it must be ended
NOW!
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If Obama has nothing to hide then shut the disbelievers up and just produce the real deal Birth Certificate Under the circumstances, there is room to doubt? His own step Grandparent said she witnessed his birth in Kenya. There is no doctor or hospital name on the presented birth certificate?? How smart is that? Oops or should I say 'REAL is that,' Ha! Of course a parent with relatives in Hawaii,
would promote Obamas birth as an American, which is a good thing.
I lean towards Obamas birth, being in his fathers native land?!
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And that's just what we're fighting to do. The United States
Justice Foundation is spearheading a campaign to protect the
United States Constitution... and your liberty.
We have to press our case to stop Barack Obama from, apparently, illegally holding the Presidency, despite the ongoing threats against us. We will be filing additional lawsuits and administrative actions, over and above those already filed, if you will help us today.
I need your help right now in order to win this battle. We need
grassroots patriots all across America -- that's YOU -- to
contact all 50 State Attorneys General. Helping USJF with this
campaign is your best shot, and, possibly your only chance, at
finding out whether Barack Obama is legally holding the
Presidency of our great nation, or whether he is a fraud -- a
usurper!
My friend, please take action immediately. Please FAX all 50
State Attorneys General and please consider making your best
possible gift to help USJF stop Barack Obama from continuing his apparent theft of the Presidency!
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Are you willing to see the Constitution shredded by the Left?
Will you sit back and do nothing while a foreign-born person may be illegally occupying the White House as President of the United States?
We will not be intimidated. But we MUST have your financial help immediately if USJF is to survive this fight to the finish -- and if the U.S. Constitution is to weather this crisis intact!
Our country is on the fast track to disaster...but you can help
us keep the situation from getting worse. I pray that I'll hear
from you today.
Sincerely,
Gary Kreep, Executive Director United States Justice Foundation
P.S. This is the biggest political cover-up in American history!
It would be so simple to release the documents to PROVE Obama is a natural-born citizen... IF THEY HAD THE DOCUMENTS!
America has never before faced such a threat. Everything we hold dear is at risk with Barack Obama sitting as President without
him releasing his actual birth certificate. |
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The crazies are out in force this morning. |
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Still not supporting an open and bipartisan examination of his birth certificate? If you are right ,and you probably are on this would not an open examination end this? |
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new North American Banana Republic of Obamajad! |
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"If you are right ,and you probably are on this would not an open examination end this?"
Who wants to end it? Having a significant fraction of wingnuts demonstrating to the world that they're utterly and deeply insane casts doubt on the entire conservative program. And as a bonus, it brings out into the light of day some of the real hardcore racists, such as Ronna, for all the world to see.
He was born in Kenya, you know. |
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yeah right obama was born in kenya and cheney- haliburton controls all the black helicopters. I despise Obamas politics and regard regard his policys as assine but thats where it stops with me. With his job approval rating under 50%and falling He will not be around for another term even if he he did have gay sex with larry sinclair and was born in kenya. His tax policys and his heavy handed approach to implementing his policys have made him a lame duck for the rest of short and soon to forgotten term. |
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YESTERDAY ON THE "ABC, BETTER KNOWN AS THE ALL BARRACK CHANNEL, THE OBAMA SPECIAL ON HEALTH CARE"......OBAMA WAS ASKED,
"MR. PRESIDENT WILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY GIVE UP YOUR CURRENT HEALTH CARE PROGRAM AND JOIN THE NEW "UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE PROGRAM" THAT THE REST OF US WILL BE ON ????.....
OBAMA IGNORED THE QUESTION AND DIDN'T ANSWER IT !!!...A NUMBER OF SENATORS WERE ASKED T HE SAME QUESTION AND THERE RESPONSE WAS...WE WILL THINK ABOUT IT !!!! AND THEY DID.
IT WAS ANNOUNCED TODAY ON THE NEWS THAT THE "KENNEDY HEALTH CARE BILL"... HAS WRITTEN INTO IT THAT CONGRESS WILL BE EXEMPT
( FROM THIS GREAT HEALTH CARE PLAN)..
HOW ABOUT THOSE APPLES...NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR OBAMA OR CONGRESS.. BUT "OK" FOR THE REST OF US ????????
WE..THE AMERICANS NEED TO STOP THIS ...ASAP !!!!...AND REVOLT.. THIS IS WRONG !!!!!
IF YOU AGREE PLEASE PASS THIS ON ....IF NOT PLAN TO SUFFER ( WITH THE OBAMA HEALTH CARE PLAN ....FOR FREE....WHILE OUR POLITICIANS MAKE SURE THAT THEY TAKE CARE OF THEIR FAT OVER STUFFED A-S-S-E-S ) |
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"HOW ABOUT THOSE APPLES...NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR OBAMA OR CONGRESS.. BUT "OK" FOR THE REST OF US ????????"
They have something better; most people in highly-paid positions have many things that are better than the average person gets. Did you not know this? |
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Since when were those who were elected to serve We The People deemed to be holier than thou, and more deserving of the better things in life than the average American? With your idiotic mentality YOU should be shining the 'One's' Hitler style boots every morning. |
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"Since when were those who were elected to serve We The People deemed to be holier than thou, and more deserving of the better things in life than the average American?"
Pretty much forever.
Ever see the White House? Air Force One? Senate and House dining rooms? Office of a senior senator or congressman? Ever notice the "Congress Only" parking at National Airport? |
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Just because they STEAL those things, doesn't mean they DESERVE them!! |
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"Just because they STEAL those things, doesn't mean they DESERVE them!!"
Reagan ordered the two 747s that currently serve as Air Force One. Are you saying that he was a thief?
He was born in Kenya, you know.
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You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work
because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, because is that would be about the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." |
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Reagan wasn't born in Kenya - get your facts straight; Obama was born in Kenya!! Geez! I can' tlearn you nuthin' boy!
And ...I don't care WHO is President, they do not deserve the enormously taxing-to-the-people perks they get. |
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"Reagan wasn't born in Kenya - get your facts straight;"
How do you know that? Have you seen a valid birth certificate? Reagan spent MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to keep the American Public from seeing his long-form birth certificate. WAKE UP, SHEEPLE! |
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You have finally convinced me that you are nothing but an ignorant, arrogant, pompous piece of liberal shiit. Just stay the hell out of my posts from now on; I wouldn' t want to become contaminated by some horrible disease you may be able to transmit through cyberspace, you stupid Cretin. |
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"You have finally convinced me that you are nothing but an ignorant, arrogant, pompous piece of liberal shiit."
Finally!
"Just stay the hell out of my posts from now on;"
Just trying to help out, Ronna². I think you're doing a marvelous job for the republican party and the conservative movement.
He was born in Kenya, you know. |
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Kaboom and Munck- thanks for your comments; you convinced me to donate to the USJF for RonnaRonna!
I can either pay now, to stop Obama, or pay later when they tax the hell out of me and put me on a healthcare waiting list...so I may as well pay now for something I believe in. |
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Yes reading the thoughts of Munck and kaboom surely convince you that we are in real trouble . |
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RonnaRonna 12:40 PM
"Reagan wasn't born in Kenya - get your facts straight;"
How do you know that? Have you seen a valid birth certificate? Reagan spent MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to keep the American Public from seeing his long-form birth certificate. WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!
.... Actually, Ronald Reagan's long form BC is framed and hanging on a display wall in the Reagan Library in California. I was looking at it a few weeks ago and commented to the stranger next to me, "Do you think we'll ever see something like this in the Obama Library?" He said,"Never."
But, you can see Reagan's any time you want during Sunday - Saturday for the low admission price of $12.00. To see Obama's long form BC, we are supposed to bet the farm, our safety, and our lives on his word of honor that he really is a Natural Born Citizen as required by the Constitution. |
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